F46 Change Proposal: Changes Discussion Only On Devel List

Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ChangesDiscussionOnlyOnDevelList Discussion thread - https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f46-change-proposal-changes-discussion-only-on-devel-list/197431 == Summary == Starting with Fedora Linux 46, discussion of Fedora Changes as part of the [https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/operations/pgm%20guide/changes/ Changes Process] will happen solely on the devel mailing list and will no longer be simultaneously discussed on Fedora Discussion (the Discourse forum). Changes will continue to be announced on Discourse in read-only topics to provide a bridge between the two platforms. This Change aims to improve communication by avoiding having two separate mediums for the same discussion. == Owner == * Name: [[User:gotmax23| Maxwell G]], [[User:ngompa| Neal Gompa]], [[User:decathorpe| Fabio Valentini]], [[User:salimma | Michel Lind]] * Email: maxwell@gtmx.me, ngompa13@gmail.com, decathorpe@gmail.com, michel@michel-slm.name == Detailed Description == Starting with Fedora Linux 46, discussion of Fedora Changes as part of the [https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/operations/pgm%20guide/changes/ Changes Process] will happen solely on the devel mailing list and will no longer be simultaneously discussed on Fedora Discussion (the Discourse forum). Changes will be announced on Discourse in read-only topics with links to the wiki page and devel discussion for each Change to provide a lightweight bridge between the two platforms. This Change aims to improve communication by avoiding having two separate mediums for the same discussion. The current "split brain" approach has been a significant pain point for Change Owners, FESCo members, and other project contributors attempting to follow Changes feedback discussion. Contributors have noted this as a cause of burnout. If technically feasible to use on read-only Discourse threads, we will keep the bot enabled that creates non-binding polls ("How do you feel about the proposal as written?") to collect community feedback on Changes. We will also adapt the bot to disable the anonymous results option on the Discourse polls so individual voices are better heard. FESCo will consider the polls alongside feedback on the devel list when voting on proposed Changes. == Feedback == There was some pre-Change discussion in "[https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/Q7KX3BDBUPCNOPVALP5GKR2MHTWB6ASD/ How can we improve the Changes Process?]" ([https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VPQXOLZV3NVUOVTF4VCUEZU2BEFCQVQ5/ Maxwell's summary/takeaways]) on the devel list. This discussion was covered by LWN in [https://lwn.net/Articles/1081557/#:~:text=Changes%20to%20changes Fedora grapples with change § Changes to changes]. Additional feedback was provided in a [https://matrix.to/#/!DMptnKvPTdgoULzUTV:fedoraproject.org/$MuM8JzFoXojgU1x1LJMUO1Vn6kqOzTOjxSaLwqdjvdw?via=fedoraproject.org&via=fedora.im&via=matrix.org&web-instance%5Belement.io%5D%3Dchat.fedoraproject.org discussion in the #devel room on Matrix]. Feedback about Changes Discussion on Discourse was largely negative. Multiple contributors expressed that the current state of Changes discussion led to burnout. '''Q/A:''' * Why not just use Discourse for all Change Proposals and stop discussing them on the mailing list? ** The Change Owners do not wish to alienate or exclude existing contributors who rely on the mailing list workflow to participate in discussion. Other Fedora development discussion takes place on the devel mailing list, so it does not make sense to migrate only Changes discussion. Additionally, we believe that Discourse is an ill-suited platform for long, threaded discussions surrounding Fedora Changes. This position was discussed in more depth in the Matrix and devel list discussions linked above. * What about the email interface for Discourse? ** The email interface for Discourse is not comparable to a mailing list, and it de-prioritizes email users. The Discourse email support delays sending email notifications, makes formatting look out of place on responses sent via email, and email users miss out on reactions and other types of engagement. The ability to reply by email does not solve the issues with Discourse as a platform. == Benefit to Fedora == This Change aims to address a significant pain point in discussion of Fedora Changes. This should also simplify the Change Wrangler's work. == Scope == * Proposal owners: ** Update documentation and FESCo issue templates to clarify that the devel mailing list is the canonical medium for Changes discussion. ** Work with the Change Wrangler to implement the necessary process changes. * Other developers: ** Change wrangler: Announce Changes as usual on the devel-announce list. Stop copying and formatting Changes Proposal wikitext to/for Discourse. Create read-only posts on Discourse with links to the Wiki post and lists.fedoraproject.org discussion thread for each Change. ** Implement the proposed Changes to the Discourse voting poll creation bot. If these Changes are infeasible, disable the bot. * Release engineering: [https://forge.fedoraproject.org/releng/tickets/issues #Releng issue number] * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change) * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change) * Alignment with the Fedora Strategy: == Upgrade/compatibility impact == == Early Testing (Optional) == == How To Test == == User Experience == Users, contributors, Change Owners, and FESCo members will all have one less place to follow for discussion about proposed Fedora Changes. Changes will continue to be announced on Fedora Discussion, and anyone currently subscribed via Discourse can follow links to the corresponding thread on lists.fedoraproject.org, which provides a lightweight web interface (Hyperkitty) to respond to list threads. Additionally, we will no longer post misformatted Change proposal texts on Fedora Discussion, instead providing a link to the canonical proposal on the Fedora Wiki. If technically feasible, the community feedback straw polls will remain enabled on Discourse. == Dependencies == == Contingency Plan == * Contingency mechanism: N/A (not a System Wide Change) * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change) * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change) == Documentation == N/A (not a System Wide Change) == Release Notes == -- Aoife Moloney Fedora Operations Architect Fedora Project Matrix: @amoloney:fedora.im IRC: amoloney -- _______________________________________________ devel-announce mailing list -- devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-announce-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://forge.fedoraproject.org/infra/tickets/issues/new